Hoiles cross examines Hofheinz


MR. BAKER: And now, ladies and gentlemen, we begin the first twenty minutes' portion of the question and answer period; the questions to be asked by Mr. Hoiles, the answers to be supplied by Mr. Hofheinz.

MR. HOILES: Mr. Hofheinz, do you believe in government churches?
MR. HOFHEINZ: I don't believe in Government churches.
MR. HOILES: Why not?
MR. HOFHEINZ: I just don't believe in them.
MR. HOILES: Would not every reason you give for opposing government churches apply equally with equal force for government schools?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, in this country, we have freedom of religion and every man is entitled to the right to worship as he sees fit.
Mr. HARRY HOILES: Shouldn't he be entitled to the kind of education that he sees fit?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Yes; and under our system of education in this country, he is so entitled, and you've been privileged to enjoy it.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Am I privileged to take the taxes that I paid to the public schools, which I do not see fit to support, and give them to the schools that I would like to support:
Mr. HOFHEINZ: Will you repeat that question, please?
MR. HARRY. HOILES: Am I privileged to take the taxes which I am forced to give to the public schools, the government schools, and give them to another school which I would like to support?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Mr. Hoiles, you're not forced to pay any taxes in this country. Because that force, in order to be exercised, would contemplate that you are not a voluntary citizen of this country.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Why is there the difference in distinction between what I give to a church and what I give to a school.
MR. HOFHEINZ: If you haven't read the Constitution of the United States, or understood the implication of its laws on taxes by now, I doubt if I could add anything to it in one minute.
MR. HOILES: (Above applause) We're asking moral questions, not law questions.
MR. HARRY HOILES: You haven't answered the question as to why should I not be free to give to the school that I want to, just exactly the same way that I am free to give to the church that I want to, and not to give to another church that I don't want to.
MR. HOFHEINZ: You have that same right, right now. You can contribute to any school that you desire to contribute to.
MR. HARRY HOILES: But I must also contribute to schools that I do not desire to.
MR. HOFHEINZ: You are not compelled to contribute to the schools that you don't desire to. Taxes aren't compulsory on you. You as a citizen of the United States, have accepted an obligation to be a citizen and as such, carries with it either paying taxes or leaving the country.
MR. HOILES: Then we do not have a government with the consent of the individual?
MR. HOFHEINZ: You do not have a government with the consent of every specific individual to do so -- only Mr. Stalin in Russia could answer that particular question.
MR. HOILES: Then the Declaration of Independence didn't mean what it said?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Oh, the Declaration of Independence
meant exactly what it said and what Thomas Jefferson and all the signers of the Declaration of Independence thought it said. Perhaps not the interpretation that you and your son have concocted in the last fifteen years without ever having been challenged on it.
MR. HOILES: Do you believe that if I, as an individual initiate force to make you help pay for my ideas of education, that would be violating the Golden Rule?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Will you state the question again, please?
MR. HOILES: Do you believe that if I, as an individual, initiate force to make you help pay for my ideas of education that I would be violating the Golden Rule?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well. if you're attempting to prove that the violation of the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments-- to levy a tax to support schools on the theory that it is "stealing" is hard for me to go along with any other logic.
MR. HOILES: You didn't answer the question -- whether I would be violating the Golden Rule, if I, as an individual, use coercion and force to make another man help pay for my ideas of education.
MR. HOFHEINZ: Oh, if you as an individual come over and beat me over the head and say I've got to give you ten dollars to establish the Hoiles' school for your son, Junior -- I don't believe you'd have that right, no.
MR. HOILES: That would be violating the Golden Rule?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Yes, sir; I think that would.
MR. HARRY HOILES: How many persons does it take to make an act that would violate the Golden Rule, when done by one person, become in agreement with the Golden Rule?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Oh, I don't think you could multiply it
any number of times. If it was wrong once, it would be wrong all-the time, for you individually to do it.
MR. HARRY HOILES: I didn't ask you if it was wrong for us individually. But I ask if joined with other individuals, how many other individuals would we have to join with to force you
to pay for our schools before we could make it compatible with the Golden Rule?
MR. HOFHEINZ: We11, let me say, that if you and all these folks should start picking up stones collectively and attempted to stone me to make me pay, to contribute to the Hoiles' system of schooling, it would still be a violation of the Golden Rule.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Then why isn't it a violation of the Golden Rule when you and all these other people, you do not necessarily pick up stones, but make us either pay taxes to support these schools or go to jail?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Mr. Hoiles, has anybody ever told you that you had to remain in this country as a citizen of the United States?
MR. HOILES: We're talking about moral principles. They've told people --they’ve told people that they had to pay the taxes or go to jail.
MR. HOFHEINZ: Has anybody said that you HAD to submit to the Constitution and the government of the United States and remain in this country? And that's the answer to the question. Obviously, if you are a voluntary citizen, you have, under the precepts of our government, given the authority to others to carry out the collection of the tax, and it's just that simple.
MR. HARRY HOILES: We pay our taxes just like you and every other individual here, but we do not, any more than you or other individuals here, say that we do not have the right to protest the payment of such taxes and to work within the frame- work of our government to get away from these taxes. But you say that we must pay them towards the schools that you want supported. Why should you say that any more than you say that we should contribute to the church that you want supported.
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, I answered that a while ago, but I'm particularly interested in your comment which I take, shares your father's judgment that you are willing now to operate within the confines of our accepted United States Government, which is the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and all laws passed thereunder. Am I correct?
MR. HOILES: We were not trying to determine what the Constitution said. We were trying to determine what was in harmony with the Golden Rule and the Commandments and the Declaration of Independence. We were not talking about the Constitution.
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, did I understand that you are willing to operate under the Constitution of the United States, MR. Hoiles?
MR. HOILES: Depends on what the Constitution stands for.
MR. HOFHEINZ: Mr. Hoiles, if you haven't learned what the Constitution of the United States stands for in your seventy-three years, then another minute is not going to help any now,
MR. HOILES: I didn't hear.
MR. HOFHEINZ: I said if you haven't learned what the Constitution of the United States stands for in your seventy-three years, then I'm confident the one minute that I could put on the subject wouldn't help any now.
MR. HOILES: Well, Henry D. Thoreau went to jail because he wouldn't pay taxes to help catch slaves to return them to their owners. And he had a moral right to do that, did he not?
MR. HOFHEINZ: I'm sorry; I didn't get the first part of Your question--if you'll repeat it, please.
MR. HOILES: Didn't Henry D. Thoreau have a moral right to Protest paying taxes and go to jail because he didn't want to pay taxes that helped catch slaves to return them to their owners?
MR. HOFHEINZ: I don't know about, him but speaking of the Ten Commandments and the Mosiac Law, I know that back there, from what I read in the Bible, slaves were recognized as moral subjects at that time. But certainly morality has changed a little bit since then, and what happened to brother Thoreau, I, frankly, am not familiar with at this moment.
MR. HOILES: Do you believe in tax-supported medicine and doctors?
MR. HOFHEINZ: No, sir, I personally do not. I am against socialized medicine.
MR. HOILES: Is not life necessary in order to get schooling?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Yes, sir, I think it's very vital and necessary.
MR. HOILES: Then wouldn't it be just as well and
more important to have life than to have the youth taught to read and write and have the government do it?
MR. HOFHEINZ: There is not any doubt about life being more necessary than education.
MR. HOILES: Wouldn't it be consistent to be for socialized medicine as well as socialized education?
MR. HOFHEINZ: No. sir. It would not be.
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well the reason for it is that under
the system of our medical science as developed in this country, I am willing to take my chances with the doctors of America in doing the job. For the under-privileged, augmented by those social advancements that have been made within the confines of our state government to take care of the under-privileged, then there is no such necessity in this country, and God forbid that we ever end up on the English basis.
MR. HOILES: That's an arbitrary drawing of the lines is it not?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, that's not the question. The question is whether or not tax-supported schools are in violation of the Ten Commandments, the Declaration of Independence and the Golden Rule, and the situation on medicine has no application.
MR. HARRY HOILES: If tax-supported schools are in violation of those, -- are compatible with them -- why shouldn't tax-supported medicine also be compatible?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Oh, I think tax-supported medicine
would be compatible if the government of this country ever got far off enough to the left, as they did in Great Britain, and brought it about. I think the government could do it-- the same government to which you subscribe and to which I subscribe, and under which we live. But that doesn't mean that I, personally think it ought to be done.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Does that mean that you think that tax-supported medicine would be compatible with these guides?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, that's not the question for this debate. If you're, going to take up a bunch of other subjects
one minute's not going to give me an opportunity to really cover this one thoroughly.
MR. HARRY HOILES: What's the difference in principle between tax-supported schools and tax-supported medicine, or tax-supported business of any kind--tax-supported churches? What's the difference in principle That's what we're trying to agree with-- these principles
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, it's the purpose of business, for your information, to support the government, and not for the government to support the business. Education is for the purpose of preparing youngsters within our country to lead better lives and contribute more to the enjoyment of Hoiles' factions and Hofheinz's factions everywhere, by becoming more enlightened.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Don't churches have exactly that same purpose?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Yes, and I'm for churches, too.
MR. H. HOILES: Why, then, aren't you for tax-supported churches?
MR. HOFHEINZ: It's a far different cry, because under the Constitution---
MR. HOILES: The Constitution is not in this. This is from a moral standpoint.
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, if you want to ask them and answer them, too, Mr. Hoiles, I'II just get out of the way.
MR. HOILES: Well, you're not answering the questions. The Constitution wasn't in the discussion at all. It isn’t a part of the discussion. We were trying to determine whether these things were in agreement with the Declaration of Independence.
MR. BAKER: Will you repeat the question, please?
MR. HARRY HOILES: Why are tax-supported schools compatible with these guides if tax-supported churches are not? What is the difference between instruction in churches and instruction in schools?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, education has become a function of government. Religion, by concept and precept of this nation, has
been segregated as a separate right of every individual to worship as he or she sees fit.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Why shouldn't every individual have the right to education as he or she sees fit and to support such education without being forced to support education which he does not see fit?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, he has the right in this country to go to any church that he wants to and to go to any school that he wants to. But when you live under the Constitution, pursuant to its adoption after the passage of the Declaration of Independence, you're obligated as a taxpayer to be bound by the taxes that are levied to support schools as established by duly elected officials.
MR. HOILES: That determines what the Golden Rule is and the Commandments should be, what the Constitution establishes, the Golden Rule and the Commandments, does it?

MR. HOFHEINZ: Oh, I think in a few minutes when we get a chance to explore this, I'll be able to clarify it, probably by some of your own logic.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Why should those people who came over here to get away from tax-supported churches -- government churches -- now, after a period of time of the existence of this country, be forced to support government schools?
MR. HOFHEINZ: There is no one, again, who is forced, Mr. Hoiles, to support government schools, as you call them in this country. If you mean that by being a citizen of the United States voluntarily, and having relinquished as a part of that contract, certain rights to the government to set up schools among other things and pay a tax, I say to you, that you are certainly stretching your imagination if you say that there is a violation of your right, or any stealing occasioned by such a setup.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Were not those people who first came
to this country able to move to the west and get away from any tax-supported schools or churches?
MR. HOFHEINZ: I imagine if they went west, they got away from everything.
MR HARRY HOILES: But they were still in this country, were they not?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Yes, I'm sure they stayed until they got to the California coast. That took a good long while.
MR. H. HOILES: In other words, our forefathers were able to stay in this country and not support government schools?
MR. HOFHEINZ: I'm sorry, I didn't get the first part of your question.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Were our forefathers able to stay in this country and not support government schools?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, frankly, I don't remember whether they were or whether they weren't. As of today, I'm so convinced that no logician or anybody using any logical processes to arrive at an illogical conclusion could ever arrive at the fact that tax-supported schools violate the three documents which you have held up as a criterion by which they should be judged.
MR. HARRY HOILES: The question was, were our forefathers able to stay in this country and not support government schools!
MR. HOFHEINZ: My answer is that I just don't recall whether they were or not. You might answer it for me.
MR. HARRY HOILES: Have you read any history about it?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Oh, yes, I've read it, but if you haven't understood the Constitution in forty years, why I'm certain that there's some small things I've passed up in my time.
MR. HOILES: Is the Constitution in this discussion? Is the constitution in this discussion?
MR. HOFHEINZ: I'm going to let you determine that when I start asking questions in a few minutes, Mr. Hoiles.
MR. HOILES: You didn't answer the question there. Is the Constitution a part of this discussion -- isn't that irrelevant?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, only from the standpoint of logic and I'm going to let you answer whether it is or not after we
get through with a little discussion in few minutes.
MR. HOILES: I didn't see anything about the constitution being in the discussion or any of the question-- or any of the two questions.
MR. HOFHEINZ: Well, I don't see anything about the "initiation of force" in it either, but I've kind of run across it once or twice.
MR. HOILES: Was free education to all children in public schools one of the ten points in the Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engel?
MR. HOFHEINZ: Frankly, Mr. Hoiles, I heard you last night and I'm hearing you tonight, and I'm frank to confess
that you have a far clearer concept of the Communist Manifesto than I ever have had or ever intend to have.
MR. HOILES: You do not know, huh?

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